Curse

Shakti · Oct 20, 2006, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master_Gorilla_Man

Altruism has its place it will get in the way of personal suvival. Homeless people have no initiatative Hollerith. Why sell a kidney for 50$ when the homeless person if he really needed the money and had the abilty to do so why not take it from the person trying to buy his kidney if he can't he has proven the buyer is superior. A homeless person does not need to be destitute and downtrodden. This situation calls for theft for survival only if he his homeless by workings beyond his control and has no other way to survive. If he brought this homelessness on him self he deserves what he gets If drugs, alchoholism, are gambling the reason he has brought it on himself.
But only a complete idiot would not know the value of a kidney even a homeless person would know that it could easily be worth a few thousand dollars. Therefore the argument you state is not a very good example.

You just told me everything I need to know about you.

teenchi · Oct 20, 2006, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Using the excuse "The person I scammed was ignorant of the fact that I was scamming him" is not justifiable reason to be a scammer. Stop scamming. The player who said you were scamming was right.

I somewhat agree with this. Indirectly it's scamming, and it's definitely unethical and exploitive to new players. I will whisper new players if they are about to get scammed from runners or selling something worth a lot for too little.

Kook~NBK~ · Oct 20, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

No matter what you call it; scam, con, or rip-off, it's all bad form and takes advantage of unsuspecting newbies. When I see people in Pre-searing offering to buy dyes on the cheap, I announce to the world that they shouldn't sell dyes until they hit post-searing.

If someone ever PM's me telling me to be quiet about it, they'll be met with a polite "no." Persistence by said individual will be met with the ignore list. If I see someone trying to take advantage of other players in any way I'll do what I can to put a stop to it. Outright scams get reported, no question (I don't consider the dye issue a "scam" in the strictest sense of the word)

Sluggs · Oct 20, 2006, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Mister Gorilla, you're the bane of humanity. People like you turn into arms dealer, drug dealers, collaborators, and all kinds of secondary jobs that make it possible for tyrants and bastards to wreak their havoc. They would be nothing without guy like you supporting anything in the name of money, which makes you as bad as them.

Miniflea · Oct 20, 2006, 05:17 PM // 17:17

It kind of suprises me that such a simple issue has provoked so much discussion. Basically: while it may not be a "scam" using the purest defintion of the word, it is dishonest at best, as it takes advantage of a new player's ignorance. The character who pointed out that dye is significantly more valuable later on is clearly in the right.

It's pretty clear cut.

Master_Gorilla_Man · Oct 20, 2006, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Trankle, it is true what you say what you say, however many people in this game are selfish. They only care about themselves even before they began playing this game they were. I started a guild a week ago. It taught me something. I had a few people join always the first thing they ask "Can I be an officer?" or "Can I have some gold?" or "Can I have a green item?" and others every day asking can I have a few k of gold? or a level 3-5 asking a 20 "can I farm with you". They never stop to think about anything even the altruists never question other's motives. They simply act without questioning why?

People are easy to manipulate because people are stupid. They simply believe what they are told without ever question. Never questioning anything or finding things out on there own, never stopping to think "Is what I am being told right, is it correct?" The media, the government, the school system, your parents, your freinds, the military, the president, so many more lie on a daily basis. But this is the reason people are like this they simply accept whats put in front of them. Lieing is so common people simply except it.

The only way to get ahead is to seize your goals in a stranglehold be it in a game or life. If others are found to be useful exploit them to further yourself. Great things never come to those who do not seize it.

Have you ever wished to change something about the world, the government? What will you do about it? You can't change something like that passively. Great change is always swift and painful and destroys those who get in the way of it.

I ask you to question yourself, question your world, question what people tell you. It is the only way to survive.

Amorfati87 · Oct 20, 2006, 05:20 PM // 17:20

I believe that buying dye in pre sear for cheap prices from unsuspecting people is an unethical thing to do. It's a con. It's not right, and it's not fair.

Now if you had said this all happened in Lion's Arch or Drok's I really wouldn't have a problem with it. By this point in the game you should have some basic knowledge how things work, and you would have had an oppOrtunity to have visited a dye trader.

Ethics seem to be disappearing rapidly from the world today. Empathy and compassion for your fellow man seems to be all but gone these days.

My car got a flat tire once. I was out in the middle of basically nowhere, I had no phone, I had no knowledge of tire changing. A young woman (late teens/early 20's) stopped and asked if I needed help. Of course I said I did, and she replied, "For $5 bucks, I'll stop somewhere and call for help for you."

Was that wrong? Did that girl do anything illegal? Was she just some entrepreneurial type that saw an oppOrtunity to make some cash? I think not. I think she was a jerk.

Father Anansi · Oct 20, 2006, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master_Gorilla_Man

Now this person I was arguing with was an idiot in my book. The argument started simple enough. It was some guy offering to buy any dye for 90 gold in pre-searing Fort Ranik. Now some player comes along and starts yelling to everyone that he is a scammer. It was a female monk. First thing I do is whisper her to be quiet and leave others trying to make money alone. Not: I am not the one offering to buy dye. She says something along the lines of "He is a scammer and everyone must know and that dye is worth more in post do not sell here". I reply that he is not a scammer, merely someone trying to make gold.

I believe every possible ethical and moral explanation for how ridiculously absurd this type of logic is; has been explored on this thread.
For my Two cents, I'll throw you a few examples of the type of "exploitation" inwhich you sight as not wrong.

Enron
Martha Stewart
Nike, Gap, (Child Labor, Exploiting poor impoverished families who need the extra income.)

I could sight endless more, but one might get the idea from these examples. I'd also like to ask, If there is nothing explicitly WRONG with what these people and companies have done. Why has the law seen fit to punish them accordingly?

If you still don't see why expoiting people is seen as wrong, I have another word to pitch to you.

Borderline personality disorder (BPD)

This thread finished yet?

trankle · Oct 20, 2006, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master_Gorilla_Man

Trankle, it is true what you say what you say, however many people in this game are selfish. They only care about themselves even before they began playing this game they were. I started a guild a week ago. It taught me something. I had a few people join always the first thing they ask "Can I be an officer?" or "Can I have some gold?" or "Can I have a green item?" and others every day asking can I have a few k of gold? or a level 3-5 asking a 20 "can I farm with you". They never stop to think about anything even the altruists never question other's motives. They simply act without questioning why?

People are easy to manipulate because people are stupid. They simply believe what they are told without ever question. Never questioning anything or finding things out on there own, never stopping to think "Is what I am being told right, is it correct?" The media, the government, the school system, your parents, your freinds, the military, the president, so many more lie on a daily basis. But this is the reason people are like this they simply accept whats put in front of them. Lieing is so common people simply except it.

The only way to get ahead is to seize your goals in a stranglehold be it in a game or life. If others are found to be useful exploit them to further yourself. Great things never come to those who do not seize it.

Have you ever wished to change something about the world, the government? What will you do about it? You can't change something like that passively. Great change is always swift and painful and destroys those who get in the way of it.

I ask you to question yourself, question your world, question what people tell you. It is the only way to survive.

Yeah, um, you realise that the people in paragraph 1 are behaving the way you recommend in "paragraph" 3, right? Can you imagine how much more you'd enjoy your guild if everyone had been...cool?

You sure mean to make this bigger than it is. This isn't about survival, this is about people being ****heads in a game. There's a big difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amorfati87

My car got a flat tire once. I was out in the middle of basically nowhere, I had no phone, I had no knowledge of tire changing. A young woman (late teens/early 20's) stopped and asked if I needed help. Of course I said I did, and she replied, "For $5 bucks, I'll stop somewhere and call for help for you."

Wow, that really sucks. /shakes head

Hollerith · Oct 20, 2006, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Why sell a kidney for 50$ when the homeless person if he really needed the money and had the abilty to do so why not take it from the person trying to buy his kidney if he can't he has proven the buyer is superior.

Even if he really needed the $50, he'd still say "thanks!" to me when I tell him it's worth way more, and go off to pawn his kidney for more money. My actions were justified. I think that's what you were saying, because now I can't really understand what I just quoted, the Sudafed must be kicking in.

Anyway, it's an analogy, and I think it defines the ethical case very well. The assumption that "everyone knows a kidney is worth way more than $50" is irrelevant, because a guy trying to sell his for $50 apparently doesn't know that. Hell, mostly everyone has two, so why wouldn't they be cheap?

thezed · Oct 20, 2006, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master_Gorilla_Man

People are easy to manipulate because people are stupid. They simply believe what they are told without ever question. Never questioning anything or finding things out on there own, never stopping to think "Is what I am being told right, is it correct?" The media, the government, the school system, your parents, your freinds, the military, the president, so many more lie on a daily basis. But this is the reason people are like this they simply accept whats put in front of them. Lieing is so common people simply except it.

The only way to get ahead is to seize your goals in a stranglehold be it in a game or life. If others are found to be useful exploit them to further yourself. Great things never come to those who do not seize it.

wow....you really are just a bad person. Just because this is the way the world is currently working does not mean you HAVE to fall into that trap. Why become just another pile of sludge. Rise above the muck to become a better person. If the world sets it's values at a 5, set yours at a 10.

I would much rather dye proud of the way I lived then of what I achived.

I wish i know your IGN Master_Gorrila because with your ethics, I never want to do business with you, in game or in real life, even if you would treat me fairly.

Good Ethics = Good Business

This is my last post here. I know you think your this enlightend individual with great knowledge about how the world works, but I really hope you one day become truely enlightend about more then just phisical gains.

Jetdoc · Oct 20, 2006, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nivryx

newb: someone new to game.
noob: someone who has been playing for a longer amount of time, but has no skill.

hope you can use it correctly now. ty

The better way to use these terms is to not use them at all.

Everytime I hear someone use the words "newb" or "noob", I basically take their perceived intelligence and/or maturity level down a few notches.

sindex · Oct 20, 2006, 05:38 PM // 17:38

I know everyone here has experienced a scam or con in their life; some people will state, that, “individual should pay for being a con artist” while others will state, “that was a great entrepreneurship.” The fact in being that I remember when I had no idea about the GW economy within the game; I found myself wonder how things worked, looking for right pricing for items and other things. As a matter a fact I still got scammed when the prices just had fallen on the Superior Absorption Rune, I paid out 15K more then I should have paid out. My fault “yes,” but at the same time this individual jumped on the ban wagon to make sure he took advantage of the situation.

It is a scam when people take advantage of the ignorant just for profit. It’s like saying, “we can kill certain people because it’s contained within our religions doctrine” (the Crusades, Salem witch trials). However going back to your example of antiques well I believe in certain instances when the buyer and the seller are both ignorant its fine. Otherwise it causes great dismay to either the seller or buyer when they find out the truth later on. So I would have to disagree with you on the fact, that it is not a scam to take advantage of the ignorant.

Swinging Fists · Oct 20, 2006, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lykan

Who are you to go around pm'ing people to "shut up"? If she wants to do people a favor by advising them of the true price of items in post then its got naff all to do with you.

I dont wish to meet you in game.

QFT
QFT
QFT
QFT
QFT
QFT
QFT
QFT

Father Anansi · Oct 20, 2006, 05:50 PM // 17:50

It's good to see the forum community pretty much in tandem with each other on one particular issue. I feel like im at a community stoning!! So exciting!

SirShadowrunner · Oct 20, 2006, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master_Gorilla_Man

The only way to get ahead is to seize your goals in a stranglehold be it in a game or life. If others are found to be useful exploit them to further yourself. Great things never come to those who do not seize it.

True, you must not hestiate in life, but in real life you can go to prison
for breaking the law, in GW you just get banned for short period of time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master_Gorilla_Man

Have you ever wished to change something about the world, the government? What will you do about it? You can't change something like that passively. Great change is always swift and painful and destroys those who get in the way of it.

You got alot to learn in life still dude, ppl have been trying to change
things since the dawn of man, get in line with your your "agenda" like
everyone else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master_Gorilla_Man

I ask you to question yourself, question your world, question what people tell you. It is the only way to survive.

I suggest you not argue everything that comes along and just listen and
go your own way, the comment of argueing religion is one of the most
pointless and fruitless things in the world to do, as you get older you
will realize argueing politics and religion are a total waste of time and
you only get so much it, make the best use of it you can..

Master_Gorilla_Man · Oct 20, 2006, 06:02 PM // 18:02

I am not a bad person. Merely someone who knows how the world works. I have a cyniccal, amoral, and untrusting nature. I know it. Morality is something that cannot be easily defined, it is fluid changing based on the situation.

There are two types of people. Those who do not question, who do not think, they are tools. And then there are those who have initiative and use those tools. I am not a tool.

I don't have faith in society it is full of idiots. Society doesn't care about me. Why should I care about society? Look at the world you live in. I was born in the U.S. and am a citizen of it, yet I hate this government. Full of hypocrisy and half truths it is, no more lies. Democracy, f*** that. This is not democracy it is closer to an elected dictatorship. The president is moron, a tool. All poloticians are full of s***. They can't be trusted.

Have any of you ever questioned the yourself and the world. I don't think many of you have. Good is no better than evil. They are relative. They can't exist without each other and therefore have some level of equality.

You don't think I think of the consequences? I do, everytime. When do you think I will be punished for what you call misdeeds? The afterlife? I beleive that there is an afterlife but not the way it is described in western religions. Why should we be punished or rewarded for our short and insignificant lives here?

You say I have a lot to learn? I agree. But I have already leaned much and the desire for more knowledge is always present.

Bit Player · Oct 20, 2006, 06:10 PM // 18:10

To me, this situation sounds much like “real life” insider stock trading. A player profiting from using advanced knowledge of the game’s economy at the expense of other players not having access to the same information (i.e. dye traders in post-searing) is wrong…

Just ask (the aforementioned) Martha Stewart…

…too bad their isn’t a virtual “ankle bracelet”…

Shakti · Oct 20, 2006, 06:18 PM // 18:18

People this is as useless as a rubber chicken in a gunfight. A rip off/scam rant has become a ethical/moral/world discussion...wtf? This seem odd to anyone else? As Father Anansi said it has become a public stoning, and I can't possibly be the only one who has noticed that Master_Gorilla_Man is thriving on it, he is replying constantly, making bigger and bigger soap-box statements.

Guys, lets not feed the troll k?

Sli Ander · Oct 20, 2006, 06:22 PM // 18:22

I agree with Shakti, lets just close this discussion. There's no point in trying to argue a point to someone who will never listen. And to someone that is using every statement against him to push a political, moral, ethical justification.

Moderators please close.